Subject: [Dev] Anybody Listening?

From: "Phillip Rhodes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:34:22 -0400

So, does anybody post here anymore?  Tanner, got anymore good
"Stupid STL Tricks" or anything good for us?

Too bad our Design Patterns reading group kinda fell apart...  maybe we
could resume some discussion of patterns here on the list, and not
necessarily
worry about meeting in person, or something...

TTYL,

Phil

The ones who never give up, don't die - Langley

---

From: Tom Bryan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 06:20:28 +0500

On Wednesday 07 August 2002 09:34 am, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
> So, does anybody post here anymore?  

Yes.  My last post was the announcement of the Zope/Python User Group 
formation two weeks ago.  

> Tanner, got anymore good "Stupid STL Tricks" or anything good for us?

Most of my playing at home is with Python or Perl.  Most of my work is 
Java or C.  Not sure what sort of goodness I can post related to any of 
that...unless I dig up some old stuff where I was dumping portions of 
KSpread documents (parsing the XML directly).

> Too bad our Design Patterns reading group kinda fell apart...  

That's too bad.  What happened?  I was interested but couldn't make the 
time slot.  If you try it again, I'm still interested.  

> maybe we could resume some discussion of patterns here on the list, 
> and not necessarily worry about meeting in person, or something...

If the discussion moves to the list, I can probably participate, but it 
will probably takes days just to discuss each pattern that way.  Should 
we give it a try?  

---Tom

---

From: Michael Mueller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:30:03 -0400

> So, does anybody post here anymore?  

Yup.  Low frequency.  My programming has slowed way down.   With the telecom 
sector in the doldrums, I'm not too busy these days.

> Tanner, got anymore good

I getting rusty on STL.  If you don't use you have to re-learn it.

> worry about meeting in person, or something...

How about building something so we can apply the theory?  We can make it 
inter-language so as not to force C++ on anyone.  I've had some fun 
inter-working C++ and Python at the binary level.  Here's an idea for a 
project: a trademark/servicemark generator.  It takes a product description 
and searches the web for names already in use for similar products, then it 
generates new names that avoid trademark dispute on a rank order.  The web 
search includes the USPTO and state level tradmark sites as well as the whole 
web.  It should be an international tool, of course, so G7 nation trademark 
sites would be included.

-- 
Mike Mueller
www.ss7box.com

---

From: "Justin Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:57:51 -0500

> How about building something so we can apply the theory?  We
> can make it inter-language so as not to force C++ on anyone.

I am definitely interested in this too. I am definitely in favor of the
language neutrality, as I am a Windows/Delphi developer by trade. Anyone up
for doing examples in Object Pascal? And for those that aren't aware, yes OP
(Delphi / Kylix) fully support OOP. It's not pure OOP as in Java, but for
the most part I am glad of that(strings come to mind). Inheritance,
Polymorphism, interfaces, that's all there. So what say you?

I have interest in Java as well, but I would need to really jam on getting
to know the language before I really started trying to apply Design Patterns
in Java. As a side note, I am mostly learning Java as a vehicle for forcing
myself to start developing in a more OOP way. If there is another language
that some of you may consider better for learning OOP, I'm all ears.

Later,
Justin Johnson

---

From: "Justin Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:59:00 -0500

> can make it 

Is there anything that could be written that would benefit the Lug?

---

From: "Jon Carnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:27:53 -0400

A web-based management application that lets the individual user change
passwords, play with their email forwards, procmail scripts, and
spamassassin settings.

Just a suggestion,

Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
Justin Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:59 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [Dev] Anybody Listening?

Is there anything that could be written that would benefit the Lug?
_______________________________________________
Dev mailing list
[email-masked]
http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

---

From: Tanner Lovelace <[email-masked]>
Date: 07 Aug 2002 13:21:43 -0400

> passwords, play with their email forwards, procmail scripts, and

Bingo!  That would be awesome.  Of course, the backend is primarily
dependent on how things are setup (and they aren't yet), but
the front end could be backend independent...

Great suggestion, Jon. :-)

Tanner
-- 
Tanner Lovelace | [email-masked] | http://wtl.wayfarer.org/
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
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GPG Key can be found at http://wtl.wayfarer.org/lovelace.gpg.asc
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
          Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.

---

From: Mike Mueller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:33:22 -0400

> passwords, play with their email forwards, procmail scripts, and

I am having problems cruising the net today.  There are lots of dead-ends for 
me.  Maybe it's that Allegiance - ICI thing John Franklin wrote about.  
Anyway I can't get to www.webmin.com to do my research before asking this 
question:  Is the tool suggestion different from what webmin offers? (Hope I 
CMA on asking a stupid question.)
-- 
m

---

From: "Jon Carnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:06:11 -0400

It's similar, but doesn't let you edit your .procmailrc file or your
.spamassassin/user_prefs file.  The model might be good to follow for
development.  I use the Steff Wagners app "cgipasswd" as a model for my apps
which do similar tasks - but that is written in C.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
Mike Mueller
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:33 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Dev] Anybody Listening?

> passwords, play with their email forwards, procmail scripts, and

I am having problems cruising the net today.  There are lots of dead-ends
for

---

From: Mike Mueller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:04:18 -0400

On Wednesday 07 August 2002 16:06, Jon Carnes wrote:
> development.  I use the Steff Wagners app "cgipasswd" as a model for my
> apps which do similar tasks - but that is written in C.

Is there some way to modify webmin to perform the needed functions?  Or is 
that missing the point - the point being that we intend to do a bit a 
reinvention so that we can apply the patterns?  Either way, it seems that 
something useful will get done.

I volunteer to lead the User Manual effort.  I am having loads of fun with 
DocBook and am impressed with what it can do.  I am also interested to see if 
having a manual in front of development might be useful.

-- 
m

---

From: Tom Bryan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:50:18 +0500

On Wednesday 07 August 2002 07:57 pm, Justin Johnson wrote:

> Design Patterns in Java. As a side note, I am mostly learning Java as
> a vehicle for forcing myself to start developing in a more OOP way.
> If there is another language that some of you may consider better for
> learning OOP, I'm all ears.

I picked up a lot of OOP skills after reading most of "Thinking in Java" 
and then learning Python.  You're right in that Java makes it difficult 
not to write in a more OO manner, but I have seen flat scripts written 
in Java.  (The anagram example from "Just Java2" comes to mind.)

If you want something compiled, marketable, and OO, Java is a great 
choice.

If you want something quick, easy, and OO, Python and/or Ruby would be a 
good choice.

Enjoy,
---Tom

---

From: "Justin Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:31:07 -0500

> I picked up a lot of OOP skills after reading most of
> "Thinking in Java" and then learning Python.  You're right in that Java
makes it
> difficult not to write in a more OO manner, but I have seen flat
> scripts written in Java.  (The anagram example from "Just Java2" comes to
mind.)

Does "Thinking in Java" do much in the way of real wprld examples? I
understand the basics principles of OOP, but as far as applying that to a
real world problem, well I haven't gotten there yet. Is this a good book for
that? I would really like to see a applied example of modeling classes based
on real world objects / situations. I think this would help me get the hang
of OO.

> If you want something compiled, marketable, and OO, Java is a great
At this point not a great concern.

> If you want something quick, easy, and OO, Python and/or Ruby
> would be a good choice.

I've heard Python mentioned before in this light. Any good book suggestions
there?

Thanks,
Justin

---

From: John Beimler <[email-masked]>
Date: 08 Aug 2002 10:30:09 -0400

> on real world objects / situations. I think this would help me get the hang

Try it yourself.  You can download it from http://www.bruceeckel.com/ . 
The Wake county library also has at least one copy of it if you want to
hold it as you read...

Peace.

john

---

From: Jeremy Portzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:32:47 -0400 (EDT)

There is a nice application called "Cgipaf" that lets you change 
passwords, play with email forwards... that could be used as a starting 
point (need to add the procmail scripts and spamassassin settings).  It's 
written in C (because a portion of it must be suid root)... so good for 
someone who wants to practice C.

http://staf.patat.org/cgipaf/?lang=eng

I use this on my mail server -- it's simple, but works nicely.

--Jeremy

---

From: Mike Mueller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:38:40 -0400

> I've heard Python mentioned before in this light. Any good book suggestions

www.python.org has good tutorials.  I like the O'Reilly book on learning 
Python if you've got money to burn.  The Python Library Reference at the 
website is a nice catalog of system programming interfaces bundled up in 
objects.  

-- 
m

---

From: Tom Bryan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:39:08 +0000

On Thursday 08 August 2002 02:31 pm, Justin Johnson wrote:

> Does "Thinking in Java" do much in the way of real wprld examples? 

No.  At least it didn't 4 years ago when I was reading it.  The examples 
were made so that the author could present them at his group training 
classes.  Thus, they are all bite-sized examples that only attempt to 
illustrate the point at hand.  I remember being frustrated by the 
example code, but the prose was pretty good.  

> I
> understand the basics principles of OOP, but as far as applying that
> to a real world problem, well I haven't gotten there yet. Is this a
> good book for that? 

IMHO, no.  A co-worker once recommended a book that taught Java or some 
Java library by implementing an entire application over the course of 
the book.  I've forgotten the title (never read it), but I'll see if I 
can track down the recommendation.

> I would really like to see a applied example of
> modeling classes based on real world objects / situations. I think
> this would help me get the hang of OO.

Understood.  I would probably go to SourceForge for that.  Ask around or 
find an app that you like.  Then read the source code. :)

I think that "Design Patterns" is actually great for focusing on 
techniques of object collaboration.  

> I've heard Python mentioned before in this light. Any good book
> suggestions there?

I was fond of Programming Python.  It started with a simple little flat 
script and then built it up, introducing new features in each chapter.  
Later in the book, the chapters are more self-contained.  It was 
written before Python 1.5.2, IIRC, and I'm not sure whether there has 
been an update.  

For an experienced programmer, Learning Python is probably a good 
choice.  It seemed to introduce all of the essential features of the 
language, some key libraries, and a few interesting tidbits at a good 
pace.  I haven't actually read any other Python books.  

Another option is your local Triangle Python User Group (plug!).  
http://dev.zope.org/Members/tbryan/TriZPUG/FrontPage 

---Tom

---

From: James Manning <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:31:28 -0400

[Tom Bryan]
> Yes.  My last post was the announcement of the Zope/Python User Group 

there a mailing list i could join?  physical meetings are difficult,
but a mailing list would rock - one with a higher S/N than python-list
:)
-- 
James Manning <http://www.sublogic.com/james/>
GPG Key fingerprint = B913 2FBD 14A9 CE18 B2B7  9C8E A0BF B026 EEBB F6E4

---

From: Tom Bryan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:32:33 +0500

On Thursday 08 August 2002 07:31 am, James Manning wrote:
> [Tom Bryan]
>
> > Yes.  My last post was the announcement of the Zope/Python User
> > Group formation two weeks ago.
>

Yes.

http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/triangle-zpug

Of course, with only 10 members, the experience pool is much smaller 
than with the python-list.  And the S/N will be clouded somewhat 
because we are also using the list to organize our physical meetings.

---Tom