--- Log opened Wed Jul 19 00:00:04 2006
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07:08 < RoUS> morning, all.
07:09 < RoUS> last night i upgraded a system from rh 7.2 to rhel es 4.  however, up2date and rhn still thinks it's 7.2 and i can't figure out how to fix that.
07:10 < RoUS> it almost seems as though 'up2date --upgrade-to-release=foo' should do the trick.. but for what value of foo ?
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08:07 < RoUS> no-one's ever seen that, eh
08:17 < RoUS> o sigh.  i forgot redhat abandoned uw-imap in favour of cyrus-imap.
08:18 < RoUS> unfortunately, i don't think cyrus-imap support mbox files -- and i *don't* want to go to Maildir
08:18 < RoUS> i use pop, not imap
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08:36 < lovelace> RoUS: cyrus doesn't use maildir.
08:36 < lovelace> It also doesn't use mbox.
08:36 < RoUS> well, i found a 2005-12 version of uw-imap so i'm good.
08:36 < lovelace> It uses MH style mailboxes plus cyrus indices to speed everything up
08:37 < RoUS> still trying to figure out how to fix up2date
08:37 < RoUS> and still have the nagging irritation with rh for unsupporting things out from under me.
08:37 < RoUS> but o well for that.  up2date, however, isn't an 'o well.'
08:38 < RoUS> i wonder if greg dekoenigsberg still works at rh..
08:44 < gxti> what's wrong with maildir? :|
08:47 < jucolt> there is a nice program called something like "imap copy" that makes for easy(ish) mail store format conversions
08:47 < RoUS> holy crap.
08:48 < jucolt> the idea is that you setup two servers, one for each format, and then this program uses imap to copy all the messages from one to the other
08:48 < jucolt> I used it to go from mbox to cyrus style
08:48 < jucolt> and maildir to cyrus
08:48 < jucolt> actually
08:48 < RoUS> up2date figures out what you've got installed from a whatprovides on /etc/redhat-release.  contents ignored.  and rpm thinks 7.2 is newer than rhel 4, and doesn't upgrade it.
08:48 < jucolt> doh!
08:49 < RoUS> sorry if i gave the impression i wanted a complex pop solution. :-D
08:49 < RoUS> so i had to do a 'rpm -Uvh --force' on the rhel release package, and 'up2date --hardware' and now it seems to be right.
08:53 < jucolt> speaking of redhat, I haven't run redhat seriously since the 7.x days
08:54 < jucolt> I'm about to enter into the world of RHEL
08:54 < jucolt> should I be scared?
08:54 < jucolt> we are getting a new oracle server db, which will run on RHEL 4
08:54 < jucolt> 64EMT
08:55 < jucolt> would doing the install on centos 4 x86 be worth my time while I wait for the server to arrive?
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09:11 < mattfrye> RoUS: gsk stills works at rh
09:11 < mattfrye> at least as of yesterday
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09:25 < RoUS> mattfrye: you mean gDk ?  that's what his eddress was a year ago
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09:28  * RoUS discovers 'up2date --show-orphans' and crows with delight
09:29 < cybertooth> jucolt: we've been running CenOS for awhile now. It works okay. 4.3 runs well though it has some nice bugs in the kernel source code... that make installing Asterisk on the box a twelve hour nightmare rather than a pleasant few minutes watching packages compile.
09:36 < mattfrye> RoUS: yes, I mean gdk
09:46  * SortovaWork is back (gone 15:33:45)
09:46 -!- SortovaWork is now known as Sortova
09:46 < gxti> Sortova: please turn that off :|
09:47 < Nivex> @away
09:47 < Tribot> Nivex: "away" could be http://sackheads.org/~bnaylor/spew/away_msgs.html
09:48 < Sortova> gxti: pardon?
09:48 < gxti> the away message / nick changing
09:49 < Sortova> okay
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09:49 < gxti> suit yourself
09:49 < Nivex> maybe he's off resetting it with the client offline
09:50 < Nivex> *shrug*
09:50 < gxti> somehow i doubt it
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10:14 < jucolt> cybertooth, do you run RHEL as well?
10:15 < jucolt> and are the two more or less similar
10:15 < jucolt> for instance, if we run our production DB on RHEL EM64T, would be it be reasonable to run our development environment on CentOS?
10:15 < jucolt> or, for that matter, what is the RHEL license like?
10:15 -!- mshiltonj [n=mshilton@152.52.0.2] has joined #trilug
10:16 < jucolt> Oracle will let us run a development DB server without charge
10:16 < jucolt> would redhat let us do the same?
10:19 < jbroome> hahahhaah
10:19 < jbroome> no
10:20 < jbeimler> I think yes. no support. no auto updates. but I never got a real answer on that
10:20 < mshiltonj> mysql lets us run a dev db server without charge, too.
10:20 < jbeimler> IBM does too
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10:27 < jucolt> ha, who would have thought that oracle would have better licensing than rhat
10:28 < jucolt> though redhats is much cheaper
10:28 < jucolt> so any thoughts on using centos in place of rhel for a dev server?
10:28 < jbroome> AFAIK that should be fine
10:49 < mattfrye> jbeimler: rh is deliberately vague on that question
10:55 < Nivex> I need to get a list of the mandatory packages in each package group from the Red Had installer.  I'm guessing the best way to do this is to parse the comps.xml file.  Anyone have any tips in this direction before I turn my head into goo trying to parse the XML myself?
10:55 < Nivex> s/Had/Hat/
10:56 < mattfrye> no, that's basically what I had to do
10:57 < jwbernin> out of curiosity, why do you need such a list?
10:58 < Nivex> jwbernin: I'm trying to optimize the package list in our kickstart file, and I need to see what each group requires so I know what groups to drop and which packages I need to call out explicitly
10:59 < Nivex> example: The "office" group has OOo as mandatory, but all we really need from that group is xpdf.
10:59 < jwbernin> and just dropping all questionable groups and letting the dep checker resolve deps isn't sufficient, I take it?
11:00 < Nivex> I'm using a package list that anaconda generated, so I'm going by what someone clicked on during an install two months ago
11:01 < jwbernin> ok, so again, is there a reason that removing "@ Office" and adding "xpdf" will fail?
11:02 < Nivex> jwbernin: not at all.  that's exactly what I *want* to do.  I just want to see what each of those groups are requiring so I know what all I need to do.
11:02 < jwbernin> granted, I've not tried that recently, but that should work...  it'll pullin all mandatory @Base packages plus all deps for xpdf...
11:02 < jwbernin> Nivex: the mandatory package lists for each group shouldn't affect what you're trying to do then, from what I understand of it.
11:03 < jwbernin> in your example, if OOo is mandatory for office, do you want it installed, or do you not want it installed?
11:03 < jwbernin> (for "@ Office" that is
11:03 < jwbernin> )
11:03 < Nivex> hmm.... apparently it's a default not a mandatory.  I misspoke
11:03 < Nivex> we do NOT want openoffice installed.
11:04 < jwbernin> ok, so I'm missing the need for parsing the default / mandatory packages.
11:04 < jwbernin> adding "xpdf" shouldn't include other default package in @Office, so you should be able to just list the packages you want whilst ignoring group lists
11:04 < jwbernin> *should*
11:05 < Nivex> my own sanity.  I want lists in front of me instead of just blindly removing group defs and adding what I think are the right packages.
11:05 < jwbernin> okay, that makes perfect sense.
11:06 < jwbernin> I tend to prefer the "whack it with a stick and see if it responds" approach anymore.  :)
11:07 < JasonF> woohoo!
11:07 < Nivex> I wouldn't mind it myself if I had a machine I could do test kickstarts and another week.
11:07 < jwbernin> JasonF: `?
11:07  * JasonF starts packaging some broadwick tools for LGPL'ing
11:08 < Nivex> JasonF: nice!  any of my stray code end up in there?
11:08 < JasonF> Nivex: your entire backup wrapper to rdiff-backup
11:08 < Nivex> schweet!
11:08 < JasonF> along with ian's jsvn
11:08 < JasonF> and some new code we just wrote
11:08 < JasonF> you'll be credited, of course :)
11:12 < Nivex> I'll be interested to actually look at jsvn.  I saw it work, but never got a chance to read the code.
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11:57 < mshiltonj> @code_duplication--
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13:01 < bkjones> @code--
13:01 < bkjones> ;-)
13:45 < cybertooth> Birwatching in Iraq... Hmmm this guy needs a different hobby.
13:46 < mattfrye> how do I stich two avi's together?
13:48 < jucolt> avidemux
13:48 < jucolt> perhaps overkill
13:48 < jucolt> but it can do it
13:49 < mattfrye> ok. i have part one and part two of The Green Berets.  once i rip the dvd, there's no reason to have two files.
13:51 < drasch> mattfrye: 'avimerge' is part of the 'transcode' package
13:51 < mattfrye> no shit.
13:52 < drasch> you may have to reindex the file after it's merged, i can't remember: aviindex
13:52 < drasch> to allow seeking, etc....
13:52 < mattfrye> yeah, that makes sense
13:59  * rarousse hears thunder
14:00 < mshiltonj> it was just raining in downtown raleigh.
14:00 < mshiltonj> big heavy drops, but only for a few minutes.
14:00 < rarousse> whew
14:00 < gxti> nice steady rain here (cary-ish)
14:01 < jbroome> n. raleigh dry
14:03 < gxti> seems to have stopped
14:03  * Nivex checks radar
14:03 < Nivex> looks like popcorn storm season
14:07 < jbroome> it rains butter?
14:07 < Nivex> parkay!
14:07 < gxti> donuts
14:14 < jbeimler> we've got thunder and bright sun in my part of cary
14:15 < Nivex> I remember seeing lightning in a snowstorm at about 0700 when I was back in Ohio.  Now THAT was a freaky sight.
14:15 < gxti> it's raining again :|
14:16 < Nivex> I just took a peek out the window.  Beautiful sunny day in CH.
14:17 < crimsun> nope, no windows here. Lots of whitewash, though.
14:17 < Nivex> crimsun: I did have to get up and walk a bit to get near a window.
14:18 < jbeimler> I'm hiding from the kids on the deck. good thing work has a relaxed dress code
14:18 < Nivex> jbeimler: what dress code? ;)
14:18 < jwbernin> the one that says he has to cover the delicate parts when he goes out to lunch
14:20 < rarousse> You can now get your credit report for free online at annualcreditreport.com.
14:20 < rarousse> that's for hotgrits if anyone sees him.
14:20 < rarousse> and yes, I know it's been out for a while now.
14:29 < mshiltonj> @php
14:30 < mshiltonj> Tribot doesn't know anything about php anymore?
14:30 < rarousse> @ebay
14:30 < rarousse> guess not
14:31 < jucolt> they won't give you your credit "score" though
14:31 < jucolt> which is what I really wanted
14:31 < jucolt> since that's what they used to determine my loan elligibility last time I bought a car
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14:34 < tarheelcoxn> okay. I'm close to giving up. I'm convinced there's something wrong with their PBX. this worked before, but it's getting transmission errors no matter what I change
14:34 < tarheelcoxn> errr
14:34 < jwbernin> tarheelcoxn: wrong window?
14:34  * tarheelcoxn sighs
14:34 < tarheelcoxn> yeah.
14:34  * tarheelcoxn needs more caffeine
14:34  * tarheelcoxn waves a hand like a jedi
14:34 < tarheelcoxn> nobody saw that
14:35 < jbeimler> jucolt: I heard on some finance program if you get the 0% offers in the mail you're above 700 with your credit score, so I run with that
14:35 < mshiltonj> Tribot: learn php as http://tnx.nl/php
14:35 < Tribot> mshiltonj: The operation succeeded.
14:36 < mshiltonj> @php
14:36 < Tribot> mshiltonj: "php" could be http://tnx.nl/php
14:36 < jucolt> jbeimler, interesting
14:37 < tarheelcoxn> credit scores are the devil
14:37 < jucolt> they are pretty silly
14:37 < jucolt> when I bought my car they said that having a credit card with > $6k limit counted for me
14:38 < rarousse> t-storm warning for wake county
14:38 < jucolt> the only reason I have a high limit on a credit card is because I got it when I was 18
14:39 < jucolt> and they up the limit every so often
14:39 < tarheelcoxn> my roommate has no CC
14:39 < tarheelcoxn> only debit
14:39 < tarheelcoxn> he's an odd bird, though
14:39 < jucolt> I think credit scores don't actually measure how likely you are to pay your debts
14:40 < jucolt> I think they measure how good you are about accumulating debt
14:40 < jucolt> and making the payments
14:40 < jucolt> more of a rating on how good a customer of debt you are
14:41 < jucolt> tarheelcoxn, I would be curious to know his credit score
14:41 < jucolt> by my logic it would be low
14:41 < jucolt> unless he has lots of other forms of debt
14:42 < mattfrye> credit scores are a means of retaining class distinctions in a so-called democracy
14:42 < mshiltonj> I can't *wait* till I get the credit cards paid off.
14:42 < mattfrye> i have one, an amex, which i pay off every month.
14:42 < mshiltonj> No more car payments at the moment, for now, so cc debt is declining rapidly.
14:42 < jucolt> mattfrye, really?  because I would think that the really rich would have no debt
14:42 < jucolt> and thus rather low credit ratings
14:43 < jucolt> mshiltonj, nice
14:43 < mattfrye> jucolt: usually the rich have plenty of debt
14:43 < mshiltonj> you make a few bad choice -- and you carry the debt baggage for *years*
14:43 < mattfrye> well structured debt reduces tax liability
14:43 < jucolt> oh, yeah
14:43 < jucolt> I forgot about htat
14:43 < jucolt> primary residence mortgage tax writeoff and all that crap
14:44 < mattfrye> for example, i have a house payment for the deduction, but no car payments or high % cc's
14:44 < mattfrye> exactly
14:44 < jucolt> I never understood that
14:44 < jucolt> why would people rather give money to a bank than to the government?
14:44 < mattfrye> my dad owns a building and pays a mortgage on it simply to reduce taxes
14:45 < jucolt> the bank isn't going to do anything for you
14:45 < jucolt> whereas the government will build you roads and such
14:45 < mattfrye> it's not about who, it's about how much
14:45 < mattfrye> and it's also about who sits on their asses, gov't or banks?
14:46 < mattfrye> we should be taxed on what we spend, not on what we make
14:46 < jucolt> but a tax writeoff only saves you a fraction of the money you pay to the bank
14:47 < rarousse> the government also has guns to take your money away.
14:47 < jucolt> tax on consumption?
14:47 < mattfrye> it's a larger fraction than you would think.  ultimately, yes, it's nice not to have a payment, but when things like capital gains creep in, it's better to have debt.
14:47 < jucolt> that seems backwards
14:48 < jucolt> shouldn't the government encourage consumption?
14:48 < mattfrye> sometimes you get taxed three times on the same money, it's insanity
14:48 < jucolt> drive economic growth and all?
14:49 < jucolt> I thought "income" tax was originally only on earnings
14:49 < jucolt> not wages
14:49 < mshiltonj> @mattfrye++
14:49  * mshiltonj resists urge to pass out libertarian pamphlets.
14:49 < jucolt> seems like it would make sense to go back to that
14:50 < jucolt> get rid of wage and consumption taxes
14:50 < jucolt> then you only get taxed once on the money
14:50 < mattfrye> word
14:50 < rarousse> heh
14:51 < jwbernin> then how do social security and medicare benefits get paid?
14:53 < jucolt> I just said it would make sense, I didn't say it would be easy
14:53 < jucolt> or even possible
14:53 < jwbernin> I would argue that if it isn't possible, as it doesn't seem to be from that standpoint, that it *doesn't* make sense.
14:54 < jucolt> well, social security is in theory a retirement plan
14:54 < jucolt> so you could think of it that way, and keep taking it out of payroll
14:54 < jwbernin> but current payments are funded by current contributions, taken from payroll deductions
14:54 < jwbernin> which are classified as taxes
14:55 < jucolt> right, so you would have to continue it
14:55 < jwbernin> "socsectax" it my label.
14:55 < jwbernin> which is a tax on my wages.
14:55 < jucolt> in theory you get it back
14:55 < mshiltonj> ha!
14:55 < jucolt> I get a statement telling me how much I'm elligible for
14:55 < jwbernin> well, that theory has the same thing happen to it when it gets introduced to reality
14:56 < jucolt> there isn't anything really broken with social security
14:56 < mshiltonj> the ponzi scheme only works when the pyramid keeps growing from the bottom.
14:56 < jucolt> except for the massive borrowing against it
14:56 < jucolt> mshiltonj, our entire economy requires constant growth
14:56 < mshiltonj> dude, I'm not even going to argue it.
14:57 < mshiltonj> it baffles me that anyone thinks ss is a good idea.
14:59 < jbeimler> spending other peoples money is always better than spending yours
15:01 < jucolt> good idea or not, the money that I have contributed to SS is money that has been promised to me upon retirement or disability
15:01 < jucolt> so ending the program would mean that *my* money goes away
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15:03 < jucolt> and given the current negative savings rate in this country, it seems like a good thing to be planning for what to do with all the people that are going to retire or become disabled in debt
15:04 < jucolt> I for one don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of broke old people -- feeble or not, it doesn't take much strength to shoot someone in the back of the head and take their wallet
15:05 < rarousse> jucolt: so far as I know it, there's no account with your SS contributions in it.
15:06 < jucolt> rarousse, SS is stored as T-Notes
15:08 < rarousse> Thank you notes?
15:08 < jbeimler> t bills
15:09 < rarousse> :)
15:09 < rarousse> I pity the fool who takes my money.
15:10 < JasonF> jbroome: jtower: tarheelcoxn: I need root password to the server I just bought
15:10 < JasonF> haha
15:10 < jbroome> JasonF: try cerient
15:10 < jwbernin> JasonF: rescuecd
15:10 < jtower> JasonF: bob/bob
15:10 < jucolt> thanks jbeimler
15:11 -!- shawnh [n=shawn@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com] has joined #trilug
15:11 < JasonF> LOL @ bob/bob
15:11 < jbroome> was that it?
15:11 < JasonF> bob/bob ftw
15:11 < JasonF> we're reinstalling it, but I'm just taking a look at lspci, etc
15:11 < jtower> i just slapped dapper on there
15:12 < jtower> base install w/ smp kernel
15:12  * bkjones tries to think of worse place to live than NJ.
15:12 < jwbernin> bkjones: Florida
15:12  * bkjones considers lebanon
15:13 < jbroome> texas
15:13 < shawnh> parts of mass.
15:13 < bkjones> heh. I've lived in TX.
15:13 < jwbernin> Montana
15:13 < bkjones> shawnh: good point.
15:13 < shawnh> no way... montana rocks
15:13 < jbroome> yeah, i was thinking MT might be a nice place to live
15:13 < JasonF> jtower: my main wonderings is if debian sarge will work with a stock kernel
15:13 < jbroome> uh, why wouldn't it?
15:13 < jtower> probably
15:13 < shawnh> glacier lake > *
15:14 < JasonF> jbroome: old kernel. We've had issues with some dell poweredges and scsi or sata dupport
15:14 < rarousse> bkjones: Dunn, NC
15:14 < bkjones> lol
15:14 < rarousse> bkjones: or Wilson, NC if you ask jwbernin
15:14 < jwbernin> you mean Wiltson, as the natives say?
15:14 < bkjones> I remember Wilson coming up in jest when I was looking for real estate down there.
15:15 < jbroome> i have a cousin that moved there from west cary.  Ouch.
15:15 < bkjones> there's a 'west' cary?
15:18 < jwbernin> yeah, it's called Raleigh.  Cary's trying to annex it now.
15:19 < jwbernin> (they want to become a big town - they're getting tired of all this 'small town' shit)
15:20 < impl> jwbernin: The last time I checked, Raleigh is east of Cary
15:20 < shawnh> wilson does have parker's barbecue
15:20 < shawnh> which somewhat redeems it
15:20 < gxti> lookin' nasty outside
15:20 < jwbernin> impl: that's geography.  Cary town council doesn't pay attention to that very much.
15:20 < bkjones> fscking yankees.
15:20 < bkjones> only they would shun small-townness
15:20 < shawnh> jwbernin: it doesn't matter.  just don't let your trash can be seen.
15:22 < shawnh> cuz that's what really matters
15:24 < rarousse> or put up a shiney diner :)
15:24 < rarousse> has to be a beige diner.
15:25 -!- shawnh [n=shawn@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com] has quit ["leaving"]
15:26 < jwbernin> why do I always think "bipolar" when I see that hostname?
15:28 < JasonF> parkers is NASTY, mang
15:28 < JasonF> NASTY
15:28 < gxti> the drive home today should be interesting
15:29 < Nivex> gxti: ?
15:29 < jbeimler> rain + NC == nasty drive time
15:29 < Nivex> oh joy.
15:30 < gxti> oh, the storm warning ends at 3:30
15:30 < Nivex> good thing I'll be riding on the bus
15:30 < gxti> as long as im not driving through a thunderstorm down 40
15:31 < gxti> driving in a thunderstorm is one thing, driving in a thunderstorm on a full 4 lane interstate is another entirely
15:31 < mshiltonj> Nivex: you ride bus from CH to raleigh?
15:31 -!- impl [n=impl@httpcraft/php/nforbes] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:32 < Nivex> mshiltonj: yep.  I take TTA 550 every day
15:32 < Nivex> so instead of cursing loudly at other drivers while stuck in traffic, I can sleep or code
15:33 < gxti> 40 west is smooth in the afternoon
15:33 < gxti> i just feel sorry for those going east ;p
15:33 < mshiltonj> how long is you commute?
15:34 < mshiltonj> your
15:34 < gxti> mine is 40 minutes
15:34 < Nivex> total or just on bus?
15:34 < gxti> raleigh to west of chapel hill
15:34 < mshiltonj> both, I guess.
15:34 < gxti> i live in chapel hill, that is
15:34 < gxti> i guess Nivex does the opposite
15:34 < Nivex> 45-50 minutes from door to door.  15 minutes from my apt to the P&R and 30+ minutes on bus
15:34 < jtower> holy shit, five hour of tour coverage on oln today
15:35 < mattfrye> holy boring
15:36 < jtower> i know, that's why i wait to watch it with the tivo :)
15:36 < jwbernin> on fast forward.
15:36 < mattfrye> i can't remember the last time i watched a show in real time.
15:37 < mattfrye> of course, there isn't much time for tv these days
15:42 < jbeimler> feels awesome outside. thermometer says only 78
15:42 < jbeimler> nice breeze. only problem is the thunder...
15:52 < OneFix_Work> Anyone know if newer (like 2GB) Compact Flash cards can be used as swap space?  I know there used to be a limitation of how many reads/writes you could do with CF cards...does that still stand?
15:52 < Mithrndir> yup, it does.. I'd avoid it.
15:54 < jucolt> the newer cards have circuitry to spread out the writes across the flash ram
15:55 < Mithrndir> yeah, but you're still limited to a finite number, iirc.
15:56 < jucolt> yeah, it doesn't fix the problem, just extends the life a bit
16:00 < jucolt> http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007 talks about it, but says the limits vary by brand
16:00 < jucolt> offers a write limit of 300,000 per cell
16:01 < jucolt> http://cfd.linnix.com/main.php?choice=spec says 100,000
16:01 < OneFix_Work> I found one that lists MTBF as 1,000,000 hours
16:01 < jucolt> that's not very good
16:02  * jwbernin laughs as half of $client's servers go offline due to "switches rebooting"
16:03 < jucolt> I mean, damn
16:04 < jucolt> well, you could buy the card and then see if you can get a refund if it burns out on you
16:05 < jucolt> what's the application?
16:05 < jucolt> maybe you could do without swap
16:08 < OneFix_Work> It's for a laptop that only has 256MB...and it's not upgradable...I was trying to come up with a way to use the PCMCIA slot to offload the swap
16:09 < jucolt> well, I think you can do it
16:10 < jucolt> I'm not sure what the risk of data corruption would be when the cf starts to fail
16:10 < jucolt> I would think that it would be low
16:10 < jucolt> since it seems that the card would "turn off" the cells
16:11 < jucolt> I guess you would get write errors from the kernel
16:11 < JasonF> jtower: highlight of the day: making the LCD on front of my new server blink and scroll "LOL, OMFG"
16:12 < OneFix_Work> Well, the other thing is the card has a 2 year warranty
16:13 < OneFix_Work> so if it died within a year, they would replace it
16:21 -!- Lawjoska1 is now known as Lawjoskar
16:23 < Nivex> JasonF: what kind of server?
16:26 < JasonF> dell poweredge 2650
16:26 < JasonF> some refurb we got from tower
16:26 -!- bkjones [n=bkjones@targe.CS.Princeton.EDU] has quit []
16:26 < Nivex> JasonF: what tool did you use?
16:27 < Nivex> are they LCDproc capable?
16:27 < JasonF> thebios :)
16:27 -!- pakrat [n=pakratic@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has quit ["Changing server"]
16:27 < JasonF> it's a fancy new thing... basic input output system for the whole box
16:27 < JasonF> I said "hey, I don't think this is a good idea for booting a computer and handling main functions" but they told me to shuttup about it :(
16:28 < jucolt> bah, go talk to apple
16:28 < Nivex> don't get smart with me punk
16:30 < jucolt> http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page
16:33 < Nivex> On my laptop, the clock runs so fast that ntpd cannot discipline it.  There are no BIOS upgrades available from the manufacturer.
16:33 < Nivex> I am currently using ntpdate via cron every 15 minutes
16:33 < Nivex> any other suggestions for getting the clock to run more stably, or is my hack all I can do?
16:37 < jucolt> does the "-x" option work?
16:39 < Nivex> hmm... i dunno if the machine would be up long enough to take advantage of the slew, but I'll give it a shot
16:40 < jucolt> ah, it being a laptop
16:41 < Nivex> yeah, ideally (correct me if I'm wrong) ntpd records the drift of the clock so it can discipline it even in absence of a net connection
16:42 < Nivex> I haven't tried this in awhile, so it's still syncing up.  I wonder if a recent kernel update fixed it or something
16:42 < Nivex> I'm not seeing the usual high drift yet
16:42 < Nivex> might be too soon
16:43 < jucolt> oh, I don't know if ntp works without a network connection
16:43 < jucolt> I keep meaning to learn more about it
16:43 < jucolt> its a very nice protocol
16:44 < jucolt> I think people don't appreciate how nice because they are used to the "SNTP" that MS implements
16:44 < jucolt> which is crappy
16:44 < jucolt> more or less like running "ntpdate" at a fixed interval
16:46 < Nivex> grr... it's happening again.  the offset is in the 50ms range and the jitter is too high
16:46 < jucolt> I thought jitter referred to the network path
16:47 < Nivex> normally it does, but when you have delays of 0.5 and seeing jitter 10-20ms, obviously something is b0rk3d with the clock
16:47 < jucolt> ah
16:47 < Nivex> I stopped ntpd, ran ntpdate, and started it right back up, and I'm already seeing 50ms offsets :(
16:48 < Nivex> I've started it with the -x flag this time
16:49 < Nivex> we'll see if continued uptime can discipline it
16:49 < Nivex> i'll probably start it back up when I get home and let it run too
16:50 < jucolt> hmm, I'm seeing an offset of -58 and a jitter of 51
16:50 < jucolt> to my only peer
16:50 < Nivex> wow.  kinda high too
16:50 < jucolt> a stratum 2 server from pool.ntp.org
16:50 < jucolt> but no clock errors
16:51 < jucolt> that's from a laptop
16:51 < Nivex> laptops must just have crappy clock chips
16:51 < jucolt> that's been up for ~ 9 hours
16:52 < jucolt> well, my delay is 297
16:52 < Nivex> ouch
16:52 < Nivex> what are you on, dialup?
16:52 < jucolt> interesting
16:52 < jucolt> a server that has been up for 74 days has a stratum 2 and stratum 3 server connection
16:53 < jucolt> jitter of 5.8 and 2.1
16:53 < jucolt> delays of 173 and 231
16:53 < jucolt> I think I need to get them to spring for a GPS clock and proper in house ntp setup
16:53 < jucolt> at $work
16:53 < Nivex> heh
16:53 < jucolt> those aren't that expensive are they?
16:53 < Nivex> yes
16:54 < Nivex> maybe they've come down recently, but a year or so ago they were still pretty pricey
16:54 < jbeimler> no. you can get a cheap one and it works fine. ntp supposed a lot of low priced gps systems
16:54 < jucolt> http://www.gpsclock.com/specs.html says $380
16:55 < Nivex> rarousse and lovelace got some cheap GPS boards that supported the PPS output needed by ntp, but I don't know how you'd hook it up
16:57 < Nivex> whoa... my numbers just came down to something sane
16:58 < jucolt> cool
16:59 < Nivex> let's see if they stay that way
17:05 -!- jtickle [n=jtickle@ip-152010200116.ess.appstate.edu] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:06 < Nivex> hmm, that -x seems to have done the trick
17:07 < jucolt> I need an "ntp for dummies" article
17:08 < elfick> RR blocks port 25 right?
17:08 < jwbernin> elfick: correct
17:09 < jucolt> really?
17:09 < Nivex> elfick: in or out?
17:09 < crimsun> at least out.
17:09 < crimsun> haven't tried in.
17:09 < elfick> if out is "from the user's end" then that is the one I mean
17:09 < Nivex> inbound block depends on the whim of the netadmin running that segment it seems
17:10 < elfick> whichever would be "from my house" :)
17:10 < jucolt> that's annoying
17:10  * Mithrndir doesn't have any blocked ports on his connection. :) 
17:11 < Nivex> Mithrndir: yes.  we know.
17:11 < jucolt> ha
17:11 < Nivex> you've mentioned it, oh I dunno, a few hundred times :-P
17:11 < jucolt> this must be a new thing
17:11 < Mithrndir> It's just amusing. :)
17:11 < elfick> Mithrndir: are you on RR?
17:11 < Mithrndir> elfick: no
17:11 < jbroome> Mithrndir: and who is your provider?
17:11 < Nivex> I think you also pay more than us.
17:11 < elfick> speakeasy?
17:11 < RangerRick> I sure hope not
17:11 < Mithrndir> yeah
17:11 < jucolt> I have a mailserver
17:11 < RangerRick> and I think I would have noticed!
17:11 < jbroome> for the new people..
17:11 < jucolt> at my house
17:11 < OneFix_Work> Anyone know how to do a "Scale To Fit" in Star/Open Office
17:12 < jucolt> oh, but I can still connect to it
17:12 < RangerRick> (people using "RR" to mean "Road Runner" always freaks me out)
17:12 < OneFix_Work> A document is taking up 2 pages and it needs to fit on 1
17:12 < jucolt> I keep forgetting that they block outgoing port 25 from my work network
17:12 < elfick> RangerRick: what do you take it to mean?
17:12 < RangerRick> RangerRick
17:13 < RangerRick> people often use "RR" to refer to me in IRC
17:13 < RangerRick> rr: blah blah blah
17:13 < elfick> oh, heh heh, of course
17:13 < OneFix_Work> jucolt: Just use GMail ... you can send from pretty much any address using a G-Mail account
17:13 < RangerRick> thus my hope that Mithrndir is not on me  :)
17:13 < elfick> rr: why are you blocking my port 25!?!?!
17:13 < jucolt> my home connection does not have port 25 blocked
17:13 < elfick> RangerRick: yah, well I've seen pictures.... ick
17:13 < jucolt> oh, but I switched from rr to earthlink
17:14 < jucolt> you can do that too if you like
17:14 < jucolt> you just call them up and ask to switch
17:14 < jucolt> they can do it instantly
17:14 < elfick> I've been happy enough with RR
17:14 < jucolt> it doesn't even change the billing
17:14 < elfick> other than connectivity I only use them for DNS
17:14 < jucolt> yeah, until they started block port 25
17:15 < jucolt> I run my own dns
17:15 < jucolt> if you look, you might be able to save a few bucks by switching to earthlink
17:15 < jucolt> they cut my bill to $20/month of 6 months
17:15 < jucolt> and you can always switch back to rr
17:15 < jucolt> its all the same network
17:15 < jucolt> I'm not really sure what the difference is
17:16 < elfick> I'm not sure because I have a package deal with TWC
17:16 < jucolt> and that being said, I'm not sure if the port 25 block would actually change?
17:16 < jucolt> what time warner service do you have?
17:16 < jucolt> I live in carrboro, so I get it from CH time warner
17:16 < elfick> digital cable.... I think it is the raleigh TW
17:17 < jucolt> oh, it might be tw that does the port blocking
17:17 < jucolt> at which point having earthlink or rr wouldn't change it
17:17 < jucolt> though my IP did change when I switched
17:17 < jucolt> had to do a dhcp update on the router
17:18 < elfick> I'm not worried about it... I don't want to bother with an email server, I was just testing some email settings and wanted to make sure that was why it was failing
17:18 < jucolt> oh, for that you could use the trilug server
17:18 < elfick> yep, and I do... along with gmail and a few others :)
17:19 < jucolt> hmm, I can't seem to log into dargo anymore
17:20 < jucolt> but you could use ssh port forwarding to get an temporarily open port 25
17:21 < jucolt> nivex I just restarted ntp on a bunch of machines
17:21 < jucolt> and my laptop is certainly the worst
17:22 < jucolt> the best jitter from a remove server is 19
17:22 < jucolt> remote
17:22 < jucolt> and its 3.0 on the servers
17:22 -!- Sparks [n=Eric@ip70-175-21-247.nc.hr.cox.net] has joined #trilug
17:23 < jucolt> actually, my desktop is worse than my laptop
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18:39 < turnpike420> Red Hat Magazine: Issue 21: Latin America loves Linux ... interesting title...
18:41 < turnpike420> heh, has an interview with Craig of craigslist... audio format
18:41 < turnpike420> they offer WAV, then MP3, then OGG... why is MP3 even considered and why not OGG first?  LOL
18:41 < turnpike420> seeing as they don't even put MP3 support in their products
18:42 < Mithrndir> http://www.redhat.com/magazine/feedback/to_the_editor.html
18:42 < Mithrndir> there you go, turnpike420
18:43 < turnpike420> Mithrndir: haha... I am feeling like a PITA today... maybe I'll write... :p  (nah)
18:48 < john280z> turnpike420,  (your 18:39) I hope they used a condom    :)
18:49 < turnpike420> heh...
18:49  * turnpike420 goes to eat
18:49 < john280z> Mithrndir, rofl
18:49 < Mithrndir> eh?
18:49 < elfick> need to send a copy of emails that go to one account to another... is this done with aliases or forwards?
18:50 < jbroome> can do it with procmail
18:50 < elfick> eh, well, I don't have procmail on this box afaik
18:51 < jbroome> that's just odd
18:51 < tarheelcoxn> if I wanted to have all messages to foo@bar.com that _weren't_ from an *@foo.com address dropped, could I do _that_ with procmail?
18:52 < elfick> I was just going to put an entry in aliases, but I've never used it that way
18:52 < jbroome> if i want a pony, where would that go?
18:52 < elfick> anyone ever tell you guys that you are no help! :)
18:52 < john280z> on Santa's list
18:53 < tarheelcoxn> who is "you guys" anyway?
18:54 < elfick> "you guys" is a virtual container that holds whoever I want at the moment :)
18:54 < john280z> they are the ones that refund your money
18:54 < elfick> john280z: thats right!
18:54 < elfick> where's my trilug membership refund!
18:57 < tarheelcoxn> right. well. I guess that's my cue to go to WSM and actually eat a meal
18:58 < tarheelcoxn> (last one I ate was before 10:00)
18:58 < john280z> tarheelcoxn, are you better?
18:58 < tarheelcoxn> john280z: much
18:58 < tarheelcoxn> still recovering, but much much better than last Saturday
18:59 < john280z> good
18:59 < tarheelcoxn> thanks for asking :)
18:59 < tarheelcoxn> ciao ciao!
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19:21 < tarheelcoxn> @praise tocwireless.net
19:21  * Tribot high fives tocwireless.net
19:31 < jbroome> we're going to play a game called "toss the AP"  guess the rules
19:32 < tarheelcoxn> if you drop the ap, you lose?
19:32 < tarheelcoxn> the person with the wrt54gl always wins?
19:32 < jbroome> just the opposite
19:34 < jbroome> the one that can throw this piece of shit the furthest wins
19:34 < tarheelcoxn> oh man. how many dead APs do you have to work with?
19:34 < tarheelcoxn> just one?
19:35 < jbroome> by the end of the night, probably all that i lay eyes on will be dead
19:36 < tarheelcoxn> lol
19:36 < tarheelcoxn> laaaaag
19:36 < tarheelcoxn> suuuuuuuuuck
19:37 -!- mode/#trilug [+o jbroome] by ChanServ
19:37 -!- jbroome changed the topic of #trilug to: Next Meeting -- Aug 10 @ Red Hat HQ on Nagios.  trilug.org for details
19:38 -!- mode/#trilug [-o jbroome] by jbroome
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19:42 < jbroome> Oh good, flickr is moving 20 TB of data across the country
19:42 < tarheelcoxn> o.O
19:42 < jbroome> http://blog.flickr.com/flickrblog/2006/07/temporary_stora.html
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20:18 < tarheelcoxn> why is that chick miming the shaving of her armpits?
20:18 < tarheelcoxn> people at WSM are weird
20:18 < tarheelcoxn> <- case in point
20:18 < jwbernin> wsm ?
20:19 < tarheelcoxn> Weaver Street Market
20:19 < Nivex> @learn WSM as Weaver Street Market
20:19 < Tribot> Nivex: The operation succeeded.
20:19 < Nivex> @learn WSM as a cooperative grocery in Carrboro
20:19 < Tribot> Nivex: The operation succeeded.
20:19 < Nivex> @learn WSM as The Communist Deli
20:19 < Tribot> Nivex: The operation succeeded.
20:19 < tarheelcoxn> lol
20:20 < tarheelcoxn> I guess communists make good food, then
20:22 < gxti> woot, naggy-ohs!
20:24 < jbroome> the cereal made by your mother in law
20:24 < jwbernin> I don't have a mother in law.  I consider this a good thing.
20:25 -!- Sparks [n=kf4otn@ip70-175-21-247.nc.hr.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:25 < tarheelcoxn> if she could divert her attention to killing macromedia for having birthed flash, that'd be great
20:31 < crimsun> you're a strange fellow.
20:31 < crimsun> pot, kettle.
20:32 < impl> Macromedia doesn't exist anymore.
20:32  * crimsun dons a hat.
20:32 < impl> And, they didn't invent Flash.
20:32 < tarheelcoxn> oh? who did?
20:32 < tarheelcoxn> they certainly popularized it, didn't they?
20:32 < impl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FutureSplash
20:32 < tarheelcoxn> so it was a test-tube baby
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20:35 < tarheelcoxn> impl: thanks for the enlightening link :)
20:35 < impl> No problemo. :D
20:41 -!- wyggler2 [n=wyggler2@user-0ce2jgh.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #trilug
20:44 < JasonF> iank?!?
20:48 < iank> JasonF!?
20:49 < JasonF> I think I'm going to try and get trac installed now
20:49 < JasonF> I want to get the oss stuff up sooner rather than later :D
20:50 < impl> Trac rocks.
20:50 < JasonF> impl: that's what we're using as the backend for our oss-d stuff
20:51 < impl> Sweet
20:51 < impl> The group I'm currently working with (for free in my spare time) uses Trac even for non-open-source stuff ;D
20:51 < JasonF> free interns!?! I want one! I want one!
20:52 < impl> haha
20:54 < jbroome> yeah, my grass needs cutting.  i could use a slave^Wintern for that
20:55 < gxti> as an intern, i find that insulting^Wmildly humorous
20:55 < jbroome> i too have been an intern, i feel your pain
20:55 < jbroome> Mmm, crime scenes
20:59 < Nivex> most CGI tutorials I've seen assume that you are POSTing url encoded data.  What if the remote is posting text/xml ?
20:59 < JasonF> I was an intern, now I have interns
20:59 < JasonF> muahhahahahaahhaahahhaahhaha
20:59 -!- bkjones [n=bkjones@c-69-141-167-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #trilug
21:00 < iank> s/interns/intern/ =P
21:00 < jwbernin> JasonF: do I need to knock you down a peg again?
21:00 -!- BigLoaf [n=david@cpe-024-211-152-083.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #trilug
21:01 < JasonF> iank: yeah, and I'm not even sure you're "my" intern
21:01 < JasonF> haha
21:01 < iank> =P
21:01 < JasonF> iank: but the penguin is also an intern!
21:01 < JasonF> he helps me keep the rest of the staff in line :P
21:06 < jbeimler> Nivex: your application posting should set the correct mime type, and hopefully the cgi app will know what to do
21:06 < jbeimler> google on REST, they're doing what you appear to be asking about
21:07 < Nivex> jbeimler: "the cgi app" is something I need to write, so I need to know how to make it know what to do
21:08 < jwbernin> in my experience, when you're posting XML, the path translates to a function call with the XML as parameter payload
21:08 < jwbernin> so basically (at a very high level) you demarshal the XML and make the appropriate function call with that/those object(s)
21:10 < Nivex> whoa whoa whoa... I gotta figure out WHERE my xml is before I can demarshal it
21:10 < jwbernin> I suppose you could encode the function name as XML as well...
21:11 < Nivex> I have apparently not explained myself well
21:12 < jwbernin> the XML is on STDIN
21:12 < jwbernin> I think.
21:12 < jwbernin> in a POST call it should be, anyway.
21:12 < jwbernin> read(header['content-length'])
21:21 < Nivex> @jwbernin++
21:24 < jwbernin> @karma jwbernin
21:24 < Tribot> jwbernin: Karma for "jwbernin" has been increased 11 times and decreased 1 time for a total karma of 10.
21:24 < jwbernin> I can deal with that.
21:25 < Nivex> I was writing a small script to handle xml-rpc stuff, but didn't want to have to start up my own server
21:25 < Nivex> or deal with mod_python
21:25 < Nivex> so I just wrote the .py to be called directly
21:25 < tarheelcoxn> @stats karma
21:25 < Tribot> tarheelcoxn: (stats takes no arguments) -- Returns some statistics on the user database.
21:26 < tarheelcoxn> hmmm
21:26 < jwbernin> mod_python isn't *that* bad...
21:26 < tarheelcoxn> @karma stats
21:26 < Tribot> tarheelcoxn: stats has neutral karma.
21:26 < jwbernin> @karma
21:26 < Tribot> jwbernin: Highest karma: "crimsun" (16), "nivex" (15), and "iank" (13).  Lowest karma: "DST" (-4), "neuse" (-3), and "phone_companies" (-2).  You (jwbernin) are ranked 5 out of 232.
21:26 < tarheelcoxn> oh.
21:26  * tarheelcoxn smacks own forehead
21:27 < jwbernin> @neuse--
21:27 < jwbernin> @neuse--
21:27 < jwbernin> (I just felt like demoting someone, and he was handy)
21:27 < jwbernin> @karma
21:27 < Tribot> jwbernin: Highest karma: "crimsun" (16), "nivex" (15), and "iank" (13).  Lowest karma: "neuse" (-5), "DST" (-4), and "phone_companies" (-2).  You (jwbernin) are ranked 5 out of 232.
21:27 < tarheelcoxn> DST == Daylight Savings time?
21:27 < jwbernin> I believe so, yes
21:28 < jbroome> wow, that's pretty bad to be ranked worse than phone companies
21:32 < tarheelcoxn> people need to learn to use @(foo bar)--
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> @(phone companies)--
21:33 < jwbernin> why?
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> @(phone companies)--
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> @(phone companies)--
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> @karma
21:33 < Tribot> tarheelcoxn: Highest karma: "crimsun" (16), "nivex" (15), and "iank" (13).  Lowest karma: "neuse" (-5), "DST" (-4), and "phone companies" (-3).  You (tarheelcoxn) are ranked 12 out of 233.
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> tada
21:33 < jwbernin> phone_companies is perfectly acceptable, IMHO
21:33 < Nivex> yes, all hail the underbar!
21:33 < tarheelcoxn> s/bar/score/
21:33  * tarheelcoxn pokes Nivex 
21:34 < jwbernin> Fear the Underminer!
21:36 < Nivex> @lart tarheelcoxn
21:36  * Tribot slaps tarheelcoxn with 1000 flaming trouts
21:36  * tarheelcoxn sighs
21:37 < tarheelcoxn> the guy behind me just pronounce Vonage with an "o" like in "own"
21:37 < tarheelcoxn> s/pronounce/pronounced/
21:37 < crimsun> and you just made me chuckle at the utter irony.
21:37 < crimsun> indeed. :-)
21:37 < tarheelcoxn> I did chuckle
21:37 < crimsun> correcting enunciation by making a typo. :-)
21:38 < tarheelcoxn> I also chuckled earlier when he was complaining about not getting the root password from a client
21:38  * tarheelcoxn heads out
21:40 < JasonF> trac officially fails at life
21:43 < jwbernin> JasonF: ?
21:43 -!- Sparks [n=kf4otn@ip70-175-21-247.nc.hr.cox.net] has joined #Trilug
21:45  * JasonF has been fighting to get trac working for an hour
21:46 -!- impl [n=impl@httpcraft/php/nforbes] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
22:00 < jbroome> baron von underbeight!
22:07 -!- Sparks [n=kf4otn@ip70-175-21-247.nc.hr.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:19 -!- john280z [n=johnm@user-0ce2hju.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:29 -!- piglicious [n=piglicio@cpe-071-065-242-061.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
22:48 < Nivex> Ever since I went to the latest Ubuntu kernel, my laptop takes ~2x as long to shut down.
22:48 < Nivex> and I see some random error about mem_slab not freeing kernel memory or some such
22:48 < Nivex> I wonder if it relates to the openafs module I have in there
22:48 < Nivex> *shrug*
23:05 < Nivex> and the frequency of the power must be different here or something.  the clock on the laptop is going nuts again
23:12 -!- bkjones [n=bkjones@c-69-141-167-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #trilug []
23:19 < jbeimler> JasonF: apt-get install trac has worked for me every time
23:19 -!- daguz [n=leo@cpe-024-211-189-174.nc.res.rr.com] has left #trilug []
--- Log closed Thu Jul 20 00:00:06 2006